Ear To Ear Podcast | EPISODE 6: Leadership with Keith Singler

Transcript:

 

Introduction (00:00):

Welcome to Ear to Ear by Altaworx, a podcast for all things telecom.

 

Forrest (00:12):

Welcome to the Altaworx Ear-to-ear podcast, where we talk about all things telecom. Today we have a special guest. As always, we have a guest every time. But you're special today, Keith. Special every day special every day. Why don't you introduce yourself, Keith?

 

Keith (00:26):

Good morning. My name is Keith Singler. I'm the Executive Vice President of Revenue Operations for Altaworx.

 

Forrest (00:34):

Great to have you. So great to be here. Tell me a little bit about yourself, Keith, so the audience can, can know who they're getting advice from on leadership. Cause we're gonna be talking about leadership today, right?

 

Keith (00:43):

We are. Okay. So I am a recovering accountant. I was in accounting most of my career and transitioned to revenue operations just recently. Looking for a new challenge, not your typical accountant. I like to have a little bit of fun outside of journal entries and debits and credits. So sales have proven to be a challenge, but also quite a bit of fun. And I think that that's much like our core values. That's, that's really my wheelhouse right there. I love to have some fun. And this is that's what I'm doing now, so it's great to be here.

 

Forrest (01:18):

So one of the ways that we got you into rev ops, you know, your first employee meeting, you know, we have this great meeting in front of the office to talk about finances and numbers, and this is your first official meeting leading the finance team. And you really kind of did not put the office at ease with some of your comments. You wanna share, you know, how that went down.

 

Keith (01:38):

Yeah, it was a wonderful opportunity for me to instill some humor into finance. So, in an all-company meeting, I just let 'em know that I wasn't very good at math, even though that was most of my responsibility was to be good at math. And we had some people question whether or not you all had made the right hire after the fact, which is great. So it put people kind of back on the s a little bit and it challenged them to think about, Hey, what's going on here? But they realized that quickly. I just like to instill some humor. It's part of my leadership style is to make sure that fun is instilled in everything that we do. So, so yeah, it's been all downhill since,

 

Forrest (02:20):

All downhill since <laugh>. So why would a finance guy want to get into RevOps? I mean, where, where does that come from?

 

Keith (02:27):

One of the things that I really considered when I raised my hand and said, Hey, I think I'd like the new challenges. I just, I wanted to make more change. I wanted to effect more change in the organization than I was having in that current seat. Finance is great. It's, it's it is a challenge. But when you're working for a company that has such good structures and processing people in a great growth industry, there are fewer challenges there in finance than there would be in sales. So when the opportunity came, I raised my hand and said, Hey, you know what, this might be something I'd be interested in. There have been other times in my career when I had considered moving over into the revenue side sales positions things like that with other companies and other, other industries. But this one just made sense. Had a lot of support. And for me it was, it was the right time. So really excited about what's going on.

 

Forrest (03:26):

Yeah, it's been interesting cuz I've, I've run across some people that, you know, in the coffee shop over the years that you've been here for a couple of years now. And Sid Sexton is one. And when I mentioned that you were over finance, he had this very question look on his face like that guy's in finance, what is he doing in finance? <Laugh>. So, it's been interesting to, talk to people that know you in other contexts and other relationships, not necessarily work-related, that they didn't think you fit in finance. Yeah.

 

Keith (03:53):

Probably not the studio, Hollywood casting 1 0 1 finance guy. I love it. Probably not very good at it. That's why I'm in revenue operations now. But yeah, I catch people off guard sometimes when I tell 'em I'm an accountant. But it makes for a good conversation. And so now that I'm in sales, you know, basically having, having good conversations with people, building relationships, being a good listener, things like that things that I love to do Yeah. Really translate over into the revenue operations side.

 

Forrest (04:21):

Well, and I think that, that your knowledge of finance in that background really helps you connect with leaders and companies who are making decisions about things that, you know, help them feel more comfortable about how you look at things from a finance perspective as well. So I think that gives you a leg up.

 

Keith (04:36):

I think so too. I think from a, business impact standpoint when I have those conversations with business leaders, whether it be a product or some type of solution or an idea, I can translate those into what it would mean for them to roll down into the p and l or the balance sheet, which is very important to a lot of those decision-makers when they're looking at those solutions and trying to understand the business impact. I can help them understand it, both from the technical side or a product side, and how that works over into, you know, the financial statements. So it's made some of those conversations much easier and greased the wheels to deals and it's been it's been a lot of fun. Very cool.

 

Forrest (05:14):

So let's talk a little bit about your background as far as the different industries you've been in. Cuz obviously you've been doing finance for a while, but tell me about the different organizations you've worked for.

 

Keith (05:23):

Sure. Started in a CPA firm doing taxes and bookkeeping, payroll, and things like that. Moved over into manufacturing, then into pharmaceuticals, and then back into manufacturing for a few years. And then moved over into the SaaS software business as a director for a, large e r p company. And once I, once I got there, it was, I had touched most of everything. I'd touched the back end side, some operation things, finance, and accounting were in major leadership roles on the executive level for several companies. Got to really use my skills and, and hone some experiences there and how they, how each department organization inside of a company, how they affect each other. And then moving into this role here, moving into finance into telecom. I didn't know a thing about telecom coming into the industry other than I had a really good team when I was over it for a national company those guys were rock stars and I didn't have to know much about the product or the solutions.

(06:25):

I just had to run a team. That's really where, you know, my leadership style was tested. Moving from leading finance individuals or finance professionals and more into it, more technical folks. And those guys are great. Some of my best friends to this day are just rock stars and all of 'em have climbed a ladder and it's been wonderful. That was my real Ford. That was my first foray into tech. And then moving into the e r P space, the SaaS software space. Got to understand some of the backends about what goes down with, developers and tried to understand how developers try to make business impacts, and then had an opportunity to network with you. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> A position came open, an opportunity, we talked and it just made sense, and been trying to understand the telecom business ever since. But it's been great.

 

Forrest (07:17):

You really just joined cuz I took you out to dinner, right? There's no

 

Keith (07:19):

Doubt. Yeah. Okay. The dinner started with an NDA. I don't know, that may be the coolest way to start a dinner. It wasn't, Hey, do you wanna get some apps, <laugh> or, and a drink? It was, Hey, sign this NDA, and let's talk about Angels Davis. Yeah, it was a test after that, but yeah. Really cool dinner. I knew right away that this was a good landing spot.

 

Forrest (07:38):

Yeah. Well, we've enjoyed having you here. It's been a good two years and I'm looking forward to, to many, many more. So let's talk about EOS you know, it's a topic I like to talk about a lot, but let's talk about EOS as it relates to leadership. You've been in other companies who have for lack of a better term, claimed to be running on EOS s Right? So talk to me about what that looked like versus what it looks like now with the way Altaworx is,

 

Keith (08:04):

Sure. In one of my previous stops, we had EOS introduced to us. And there was buy-in from certain levels, but not all levels. The interesting thing about EOS is from the top down, it needs to be full buy-in from the company. Full accountability on using the tools, using the meeting cadences, and understanding what it means from a roadmap standpoint. And in that previous stop, we didn't apply EOS from top to bottom. I think, we stopped somewhere along the management team level, and then it wasn't permeated down all the way in all departments. And you saw a very discombobulated EOS approach. It was very uneven, and unbalanced. And we didn't have the success with using EOS that we do here because it is all the way through, permeated the way through your organization. So for us, that was a mistake, but I saw the value in eos, I saw the value in the meeting cadence, I saw the value in accountability, I saw the value in making sure that there's open and honest communication, making sure that there's transparency into the business goals and performance. Those things, when you do them right, it's, it's rocket fuel for a company. EOS has, has had a huge impact on how I lead. My style is my style, but EOS is really the framework that I get to use that style and channel it toward success.

 

Forrest (09:31):

Very cool. So how would you say that EOS has made you a better leader?

 

Keith (09:37):

The structure, for sure. Yep. EOS it demands that you do things at a certain time with certain people and for a certain shared goal with EOS and those tools, for instance, let's talk about one-on-ones. If you're having regular one-on-ones with your people in open and honest communication, sometimes radically candor within those conversations or radical candor within those conversations, what you see is there's never any question about what direction to go with leadership. If you are not pulling in the same direction as the people that are working for you or that you're leading, oftentimes what you get is you get split results. You get results that don't necessarily meet the goal. You get late results, you get frustration from the people that you're leading. And those one-on-one meetings are absolutely key to the business. If you're not having them, you're not listening as a leader.

(10:40):

And I think that that is a huge misstep. I think it, as a leader, you need to listen more than you speak. And when things are understood, you don't speak mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. But listening to your people and trying to understand what they're doing and making sure that they have a better understanding of what they're supposed to do than they did before that meeting, I think is key. So that's my favorite EOS tool and is those one-on-ones. And as managers, oftentimes in my previous stop, those mo those one-on-ones would be canceled or they would be shifted, or they would be moved to biweekly instead of weekly, or they would be shortened from, you know, an hour to 30 minutes and then 30 minutes to 15 minutes and they lose value. And oftentimes what you do is you put those things on a back burner, they get forgotten, and they get to the point to where they're on the shelf and you don't use 'em anymore. And then you lose all that communication. And as a leader, it's your responsibility to make sure you're having those. So I love the one-on-one meetings.

 

Forrest (11:38):

And how, how often are you doing those with your team?

 

Keith (11:40):

Once a week. And how

 

Forrest (11:42):

Long am I direct? How long do you schedule?

 

Keith (11:43):

30 minutes to an hour. Okay. MR

 

Forrest (11:45):

Hour.

 

Keith (11:45):

Okay. Yeah. If we have a lot of things on IDs, it's at least 30 minutes. And if we don't have enough content, to fill up 30 minutes, we make the content up, we make sure that we're talking about things. I ask questions. If the IDs list is not populated, I'm still asking questions to try to figure out what we should be talking about there. Hey, what's your goals? What are you doing in your own personal clarity breaks, things like that? So you ask questions and then you listen. And then what you come up with is you come up with a, an additional list of things, then you add and then those things they affect change.

 

Forrest (12:15):

So how do, you've mentioned IDs mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And for those in the audience that don't know what IDs are, what is IDs.

 

Keith (12:20):

So it's an opportunity for you to identify and discuss and solve issues. So for us, we have an application, and in that application, you add all the things that you want to discuss, and then you work through the majority of your one-on-one time talking through those issues, making to-dos outside of those discussions. And then you break those bigger issues down into smaller pieces and then you attack them. So the next time you have a to-do, that's about a one-week to-do you come back and those things are no longer on IDs, there's no, they're no longer an issue because there's clear communication, there's a clear direction on how to attack those things. So the IDs is key in that one-on-one.

 

Forrest (12:59):

Do you used typically find that your direct reports put things on IDs as well as you, or are you the only person that puts things on IDs? How, how does that work? You

 

Keith (13:06):

Bet. I, the majority of our IDs items come from either side conversations or email chains mm-hmm. <Affirmative> or and then the request is made, Hey, put that on IDs or Hey Hey Keith, I found something that I think we should discuss. I'm gonna add this to IDs. If you don't have that regular one-on-one cadence, people don't think to put anything on IDs. Right? So they go hand in hand. You can't have one without the other. So oftentimes, you know, I've got some new people on my team, those people are still getting into the rhythm of, of eos they're getting much better week over week at adding things to IDs. Yeah. I'm finding that there's, there's a lot of power in that.

 

Forrest (13:47):

It's a learning process. I know with the, the team members that have worked with me, it's, it's, you gotta make sure that they understand the purpose of putting something on that i d s list and why it's important to put it on there and evaluating what should be going on there versus what should not. You know, there are certain things that are urgent that require, a quick decision to take advantage of an opportunity. You know, I, I encourage all of my team members to interrupt me, text me, email me, let's talk about it real quick. But if it's something that can wait until that one-on-one, if it's just a, random idea or it's an email that came up that needs to be discussed further, just go ahead and throw it on there. And that way they don't forget, I don't forget, they're not interrupting me. I'm not interrupting them. I found that, that that one-on-one cadence really does make a manager more efficient.

 

Keith (14:36):

Absolutely. It, the other thing it does is it gives your direct reports an opportunity to share their ideas. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, oftentimes I've found, when a team is running very well, everybody is sharing ideas and not just the person that is the manager or the director. Right. Or the executive. Those ideas come from either the people that are on the front lines, oftentimes seeing the problems much clearer than the person that is their direct report. Yep. So having IDs and giving an opportunity for folks to share their ideas, how to make processes better, how to automate things. You know, Hey, we might be able to do this cheaper. Wonderful. Let's talk about it. Let's discuss it. And then the manager needs to listen mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and if they listen, what they find, what I found is oftentimes the people that share their ideas are the ones that want to take ownership of that. So the managers just need to pass off on it and say, yeah, great idea. Let's run with that. And then those ideas turn into projects. They turn into rocks, they turn into all types of goals. And, what you do is you're, you're watching the business improve after every single one-on-one. Yep. And that's the goal. The goal is clear communication, moving in the right direction, and having the company better today than it was yesterday because of that one-on-one. Yeah.

 

Forrest (15:57):

So, personal question. Are you having one-on-ones with your wife to make sure that that marriage relationship is going well?

 

Keith (16:03):

Well, she has multiple personalities. So it's probably two-on-one <laugh>, maybe three-on-ones. Yes. We don't have a scheduled one-on-one. Yeah.

 

Forrest (16:13):

I, I'm an EOS nerd and that's one of the things Yeah. That I, I, I get picked on a lot by people, but then people that have taken it on and run with it, they're like, oh yeah, that really makes sense. And while I am not my wife's manager, I don't want to have that documented in any way, shape, or form. Us having a one-on-one on that regular cadence. And once a week, literally, I was out of town this week in Austin, and she texted me something and I said, put it on IDs, and she knew what exactly to do with it. We have a meeting on Saturday mornings, we'll talk about it then. So it really does help you in your personal relationships too, to make sure that you're, you know, affording the time that needs to be allocated to talk about issues.

 

Keith (16:53):

So yeah, I can see the value in that for sure. I mean, when you're talking about managers and managers, it really, there's a relationship there. There is. And, and for me, my management style is to build a relationship with people, you have to care about your people, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> Just like you care about your wife, you know, you have, it's, it's not that level, but you have to care about them. You have to care about their success. You have to care enough about their ideas to listen. You have to make sure that you are open and honest with them enough to where they understand where they're going. And then listen to see, hey, where do they want to go? And then build plans around those things. So I can see how EOS would have some very positive effects on marriages and relationships and things like that. And if you translate that into business, you're still building relationships with your direct reports. One-On-Ones is, is key to that.

 

Forrest (17:39):

So speaking of building relationships and leadership styles, talk to me about this whole concept of sowing hate and discontent in the office. <Laugh>. So how does that play into leadership and how does that make you a more effective leader?

 

Keith (17:52):

I don't know if it makes me a more effective leader or not. I mean, it certainly makes me funny, which I think builds rapport with the team. One of the things I like to do is I like to start arguments amongst people and then kind of step away. There's a, there's a Homer Simpson meme, or Jeff, whatever you wanna call it, where he's standing in front of a bush and he kind of backs away into the bush. You know, visually you can kind of see how that goes. That's sort of what I like to do. I like to see things go off in the office and, back my way out, start a Nerf dart war, then run back to my office real quick and, and, and see the chaos. But yeah, it's just one of my things that from a core value standpoint, you deal with some humor, but you also inject a lot of fun in the office.

(18:30):

And that's been my style since day one. It's one of the reasons why I came to the company because the pre my previous stop, I was working from home. I was working remotely. And it was not fun. There was no culture. My culture was my dogs and my in-laws. And sometimes my wife, when she was home, found a, the right office environment, finding a place with core values, with a culture that allowed me to be me, build personal relationships, and have fun to affect change with a growing business. It, it was a unicorn. And it's right here in Pharaoh, Alabama for me, working from home didn't fit. I couldn't so hate and discontent amongst my in-laws, I'll get right out the wheel and that's not what I'm trying to do. But at the office, it's just been a lot of fun. I mean, it's a great place to work, but the culture amongst the people there, there are such great people that work there that allows it to be fun, regardless if I'm selling hate and discontent, but it's sort of what I'm known for in the office.

 

Forrest (19:29):

Yeah. One of, the comments you made a long time ago, it's been a couple years cuz it was early on that we had a meeting and we were talking about core values and you mentioned the concept of weaponizing core values. And that has stuck with me cuz it seems like in our office, we tend to weaponize the core values. We were just in a meeting yesterday where Ricky was weaponizing a core value against me in the process of having a conversation. So you definitely have to have fun and I think our, our culture is, is focused on that. Yeah.

 

Keith (19:58):

If you're not being made fun of, or if you're not being joked on or somebody's not saying that, like kind of a remark about you in the office into your face, you know, you probably should tighten up your resume. That's

 

Forrest (20:09):

Right. Get it ready, <laugh>.

 

Keith (20:10):

Yeah. Get it ready cuz you, you may not fit there.

 

Forrest (20:13):

So let's move on to another area of leadership, which is Delegate Elevate. So I know this has made a big impact on me and my tenure running with EOS but talk to me about how Delegate Elevate can impact you as a leader and make you a more effective leader.

 

Keith (20:32):

Number one, things that are, that gets delegated to me from you or from Ricky, what that allows me to, do is it stretches me, it, it forces me to learn. It forces me to do research. It forces me to get outside of my comfort. Having you do that early on and having Ricky do that early on, what it showed me was I can do more than I originally thought I could do. And then I applied that to my team, within Finance when I first got here. At first, I didn't understand the concept cuz we didn't use it very well at my previous stop. But once I got ahold of the concept, I knew that my people could do more than they thought they could do. And that if I did not delegate certain tasks to them, what I was really doing was robbing them of an opportunity to learn or better themselves or to grow, which is one of our core values.

(21:29):

So instead of saying, Hey, there's a mountain of work and I'm gonna pass it off to somebody else, that's not what you need to look at it as. Really, those are opportunities for those people to be more engaged, more involved. And oftentimes, and this goes back to the one-on-ones if you're not having one-on-ones and understanding that people can really do more and want to do more within an organization and you don't delegate and elevate, that person will leave. Yeah. And they'll, they'll self-identify as not a fit for the organization. And the reason why that is is because they have a bad manager. And oftentimes, you know, it's said many times that people don't leave companies, they lead bad managers. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So if you're not delegating and elevating and giving people an opportunity to grow, even just have a task that they don't understand, and they have to take some real time and invest their own and invest a, a great amount of effort to get it done, you don't wanna rob them of that opportunity.

(22:20):

Sometimes you have to coach the people, that work for you and help them understand the whole idea behind Delegate and Elevate. So then they can start looking at those things as learning opportunities. But once they start to see that and they start and they get through those tasks and they, they look back upon it and say, wow, I am way better now than I was three months ago because now I'm doing this, it, it strengthens the organization like no other. Not only does it allow the people that can delegate an opportunity to work on the business and not necessarily in the business, but it gives the people that receive those delegations that receive those tasks, it gives them an opportunity to be better. So that what it does is really strengthens from within. And I think that it's a wonderful principle. I try to do it as much as I can, knowing that some people would raise their hand oftentimes and say, Hey, I've got too much.

(23:11):

Okay, then I can take that back and say, all right, we'll do this here. And then you can go and refocus and you can reevaluate and say, okay, now what are you doing? Because I really want you to be able to do this task. And then you can start to move things around. It really gives you an opportunity to move some chess pieces around as well. Is that person working on the right things? Are they affecting the business in the way that they need to affect it? Are they, are they working on the things that are really, are gonna drive change, delegate and Elevate forces you to have those conversations within your organization and it makes it better from top to bottom. Yeah. And it also, from a delegate standpoint,

 

Forrest (23:44):

It helps look at whether are there things being done internally that need to be done externally. Absolutely. Or are there things that are being done by a subordinate that really need to be done by a different subordinate or maybe one of their subordinates or

 

Keith (23:56):

In a different org or a different part of the organization,

 

Forrest (23:58):

Different parts of the organization So that the whole delegate elevate process, it's something that our leadership team goes through on a quarterly basis to look at ourselves, but also we need to work with our teams to make sure they're doing it too. Because Delegate, delegate Elevate really changed my world because I, have, a tendency to want to do things and affect change. Like you, you and I are both Enneagram three s and so we're ty, we wanna affect change and wanna make things better, but one of the things we've got to do is we've got to let go of the vine and give up those things. And to your point, if we don't, we're not gonna give people the opportunity to grow. So.

 

Keith (24:36):

Absolutely.

 

Forrest (24:36):

Very cool. So talk about hiring and firing. You know, now let's get into, the real weeds from a leadership standpoint. You know, hiring is, is fun, well, not necessarily fun. Talk to me about how that works with core values and, do core values make it easier or harder or better or worse.

 

Keith (25:00):

Core values make hiring and firing easier in every way. For instance, telecom mm-hmm. <Affirmative> 90% of our employees that's off the top of my head, it's gotta be close to that. 90% of our employees didn't have telecom experience before they came to work at this company, but they were all core value fits. So at the time of hiring, if you're a core value fit, and don't get me wrong, while you interview individuals, it's hard to tell if they're a true core value fit. But there are certain ways that you can, you can press them, you can question them, you can ask for experiences where you know if they're a core value fit or not. The way that we do our hiring and firing processes is really from an onboarding standpoint, we want them to make sure that everybody that comes into the organization has at least some face time with the leadership team.

(25:53):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, that's important because each member of the leadership team is going to ask questions and press them and, and try to understand and investigate who those people are from a core value standpoint in different ways. There may be ways that Lydia does it or the way that I do it, or the way that you do it. Or if we have Ricky talk to people, there are ways that he does it. And then collectively, hey, are they a core value fit? Yes. Okay. Then I've got a seat for them. We have enough processes and automation, we have enough experience that we feel that anybody that comes into your organization, as long as they're a core value fit, hungry, and meet all those things, hey, we can make them successful. We can help them meet their goals in any position. And it's been neat to see people grow from AP analysts to controllers over the course of a year and a half which has been really cool.

(26:42):

That's just one example. There are several others within the organization when it comes to firing core values. In the same way, if there's a core value fit issue, if there's a core value that somebody does not meet, there's going to be discussions about that throughout the year in one-on-ones in quarterly conversations and those things are identified. And then there are paths to success to get that person to meet a core value. But oftentimes what we see is if they're not using that path to success to be a core value fit after some type of evaluation, a lot of those people self-identify as not being a fit for your organization and migrate away on their own. Yeah. We've seen that multiple times. And that's okay. Yeah. I mean, we're not for everybody, right?

 

Forrest (27:28):

Yeah. I tell people that every time I interview said, look,, this company is not for everyone. And it, it is you can think you really live the core values and believe in them, but you will identify yourself or be identified if you don't.

 

Keith (27:42):

Yeah. And there's, there's an interesting, there's an interesting concept too with the core values. There's also a place of business that goes along with those core values. You could be a core value fit and say, yes, I, want to grow and evolve and I want to have fun and I love dogs and all those things that we have on our core values, but if they can't work at the pace, yeah. They can't grow and evolve to that pace. So that's a core value fit. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And we've seen people self-identify just because of the pace at which we run and yeah. Oh my gosh, I can't do this much work. I can't get this much done. But with delegate Elevate EOS tools, making sure you understand those things, very clear, concise rocks each quarter to-dos done on time, focusing on those things, using the applications as we've asked them, has to be used. Those processes, follow them to a yes, you can get it done. And then that's a grown evolve moment.

 

Forrest (28:33):

Yeah. It's interesting you talk about pace, cuz I remember that was one of the comments that you made when you first started with the company in telecom, it moves fast, it's constantly changing. We're constantly looking at, you know, it was T one s and then pots lines, and now it's replacing POTS line and replacing T one s. And if you don't stay on top of technology, it's constantly moving. But I remember you mention mentioning in one of the meetings, I think it was one of the first level tens we had, that you had joined the leadership team, and you walked out of there and said, you said something to the effect of how quickly we made decisions on things. Yeah.

 

Keith (29:05):

I'll never forget it. It was a product meeting and it was one of our first-level tens, either the first or second. And we changed, the pricing structure completely on a product set that we offer. And I, I thought back to how long it took to change pricing at one of my previous stops, and the answer was months. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, it took months, it took this committee to talk to this committee and this group to talk to this person and this person to push back and say, no, we can't do that. And us gathering information from all these different places. But in one EOS meeting, in about 20 minutes, we had identified the issue, gone out, did quick research, and figured out how we wanted to restructure the pricing. Everybody agreed to-dos were created, and they were executed. So within a week, we had changed completely how we were pricing a product to better position us in the market.

(29:55):

And I was dumbfounded mm-hmm. <Affirmative> I was shocked and it was a good pace. So there's, there's pace that you feel pressure and then there's pace. Like, okay, I need to get up to speed enough to where I can run with this team so then I could help and assist in going that fast. And I was, I was very impressed, very impressed at how quickly we did it, but we couldn't have done it without EOS. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, we had a clearly defined issue, discussed it, figured out what we wanted to do, and then we attacked it and it was really neat. Yeah. It was really neat to see. Yeah.

 

Forrest (30:27):

Yeah. E s has definitely changed our business and it's, I think it's helped us build more leaders within the company. And, you know, one of the processes that we take individuals through is the how to be a great boss. And I know you went through that mm-hmm. <Affirmative> online training. Talk a little bit about that. What did, how did, how to be a great boss, did it affect change for you or did it just confirm what you already knew? What, how, how did you come out of that?

 

Keith (30:53):

Sure. It was, it was the second time I'd been through it. I went through it with the previous company and then, and then this one and it just reaffirmed certain things that I'd seen along the way. There's certain skills, there's certain repetitions, there's, there's cadence there's honesty, there's all those things that go into being a great boss. There's listening which I think is the most important part about being a good leader is to listen not only to the things around you, but the people that work for you. It just, it confirmed so many things for me. I've worked for many different companies along the way, and I've learned just as much of what not to do in certain leadership situations as I have what to do. I've worked for some wonderful bosses that today are still mentors of mine. I've worked for some bosses where I felt that I was sort of put aside and their agenda was always ramped through.

(31:46):

I've worked for other bosses that I didn't meet with very often at all. I've, I've worked with bosses that I met with on a daily basis, at least for a brief time. And each one I learned something from how to be a great boss. You add that to the top of it. And for me, it's, it's, I don't think I'm a great boss now. I think I can get much better. I think my people have thrived under my leadership style at times. And I think that as I continue to gain these experiences, I will continue to be a better boss. But mostly what I've found is I learned just as much from my direct manager as I do from the people that I directly manage. And if, if leaders constantly are looking for ways to learn from their people, instead of having the mindset of, Hey, I've been there, I've done that, or, Hey,

 

Forrest (32:39):

I know everything.

 

Keith (32:40):

Yeah, I know everything.

 

Forrest (32:41):

Yeah.

 

Keith (32:41):

Those are the worst type of bosses to have. Right. especially if you're somebody that wants to grow in, an organization, you have to have some type of vision about a path forward or a path upward. If that's your desire a path into management, a path into the executive team ladder to the top, if you will. And, having those conversations I think is just as important as having conversations about what you're doing in the business today, which is, Hey, where's the business going and where do I fit in with that plan? And if you have those types of conversations, what I've found is those direct employees, they're more bought in, they're more excited mm-hmm. <Affirmative> They have a better understanding of what the business is doing and in, and what they do is they produce better work. I've had conversations with every direct employee I've had at Altawork.

(33:32):

I've talked about where I would like them to be in three to five years. I've talked to them about where they see themselves in three to five years. And then what we do is we have those conversations on a regular basis several times a quarter. And we make sure that we're working towards those things. Hey, if this business makes a shift, how does that affect your path forward? Are you still comfortable with what you're doing? Do you want a different opportunity? Wonderful. Let's work towards that. And what you do is it build loyalty. It builds relationships and they do wonderful work. I'm so proud of the people that I've had worked for me at Alter Works and in stops previous as well. Similar situations where I've had those conversations and tried to help them and build them. And even if they didn't climb the ladder at that organization, if they left for a better opportunity, I was so happy for 'em. And most of the people that have worked for me have climbed ladders and are in better places today than they were before. And hopefully, I've played some small part in that. But I get a lot of joy and happiness out of those conversations.

 

Forrest (34:33):

Very cool. So I know that you've done some coaching in your, in your life and coaching sports and things. Talk to me about coaching and how coaching an athlete in sports correlates to being a leader, as a coach as well. Sure. So I know, I know you believe in that concept.

 

Keith (34:54):

Yeah. It's, it's been a lot of fun. And recently coaching high school basketball, I, I coached on a staff with some folks that have some tremendous experience coaching young people, coaching young people is much different than coaching people in the corporate world, I can tell you that. Yeah. there it comes with different challenges, but how it translates is it gets back to open communication and honesty. The coach, that I coach with on a high school level, he doesn't have to be the voice in the huddle. And I think that's tremendous. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I've been on teams where the coaches had all eyes on me, and everybody listened to me. And those teams have been somewhat successful, but I've also been on teams where the says, what are you guys seeing out there? Yeah. Tell me what you feel. What are you seeing? Is he stepping up?

(35:42):

Is his own, you tell me how are they, how can you affect change? And what it's done is it translates into the, to the business world, because I can go to my team and say, what are you seeing? What are your challenges? Where should we attack this problem? And you get buy-in and then all of a sudden it gets back to that open and honest communication. Then it turns into real change. Hey, I have an idea. Great. My boss is gonna let me run with that idea. Tremendous. He's gonna let me execute it how I want to execute it. He's not going to be a helicopter boss. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, or he is not gonna be a micromanager. He's gonna allow me to do that. We're gonna set some goals and some timelines around that. Yeah, great. Structuring some structure and some expectations, but he's gonna let me do it.

(36:26):

And what you, what you do is you're, you're finding ways to make that team more cohesive, more of a team. And that's really what we're building there from the RevOps standpoint, is everybody kind of plays the roles. I've got rebounders, I've got shooters, I've got people that pass the ball. I've got people that play defense on that revenue operations team without each out, without any one of those individuals who wouldn't be successful. But as a team, we can attack challenges together with experience and communication and automation and, you know, effective planning. You do that. And what it does is everybody understands their role. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, everybody knows that our goals are what goals are in mind, where we're going. Everybody's pulling in the same direction. And it makes it a very successful team. So coaching, having people and teaching people skills and hey, here's something that I see that you lack, or here's something that, that you haven't been successful at, let's talk about that.

(37:20):

And how do we get you better? Is it a class? Is there, is there a certification or is it just con do you need more time? Do we need to go through a delegate elevate exercise? Do I need to be more open and honest? Do we need to extend our one-on-ones to an hour or, or longer? Do we need to have regular, regular meetings outside of our one-on-ones to attack a certain problem? Things that to do to help people become better. Individuals are just like players. Skill development. It's super important from a team standpoint. Having a cohesive team and having people own certain pieces and understanding their roles. I think it's vital for the success of that team.

 

Forrest (37:55):

Well, you've been very successful so far with the, people that you've coached internally and, and alter works and outside as well. So I guess the last question is, what works and doesn't work for you from a leadership standpoint? So you, you've, you've seen a lot in different industries about how not to be a leader. You know, what are the things that you've come out with said, this really works. This is, this is a, a good thing that I need to incorporate into my style versus I need to stay away from this and absolutely never do this. What

 

Keith (38:24):

Works is fun. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> humor. Yeah. if you can inject humor and fun into everyday life, especially at work, folks will work harder for you. I've seen that over and over again. So my style is very, it's very free. It's very laid back, in the sense that I may, we may be talking about something very serious and I will throw in a one-liner or a joke, or I'll make fun of somebody or stop the conversation and, and look at somebody's socks and say, I can't believe you made that choice today, <laugh>, let's stop what we're talking about and talk about that first. Cause it's important. Right. But you do those types of things. You keep people on their toes and then people know that, hey, this isn't as serious as it needs to be or as serious as you as you're feeling.

(39:14):

There's not as much pressure on you. Yeah. But you are spending a lot of time with these people too. You spend oftentimes if you're working the way that we work and the pace that we work, you're spending more time with the people at work than you are with your families each day. And as sad as that is, sometimes you still have to make it fun. And if coming to work isn't funny, you don't enjoy it, then you know you're gonna get burned out and you're gonna leave. So for me, injecting humor and fun into nearly every conversation and laughter, I think laughter is huge, it, it is laughter is something that is often overlooked when it comes to business.

 

Forrest (39:53):

And I hate that we don't laugh at our meetings. <Laugh>, like when you and I have one-on-ones, it's always so serious. Why don't you have humor in our meetings? I laugh. So that's what I

 

Keith (40:00):

Wanna, I laugh more here than I have at any other place I've been. And I would say that is it, it's great medicine. Yeah. But it's also great rocket fuel. I've, I've, I've mentioned that before. So that is really working. Yeah. And if you sit in our revenue operations meeting, we laugh all the time. I mean, we're cracking on people, we're cracking on things, we're cracking on ideas. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And we're doing that because I want everybody to, to feel like they're part of the team. And humor is a, is a great way to do that. What's not working, is micromanagement. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Absolutely. It's, it's, it's a cancer. And what it does is if you have a manager that's micromanaging, and let's say it's two levels up, not just the person that's being micromanaged will feel that pressure and that weight, but the person that also works for that person.

(40:50):

Yeah. And micromanagement causes people to complain. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, which is cancer to an organization. If you are being micromanaged, use your one-on-one to have that open and honored conversation. And if your manager is a good leader and is willing to grow and evolve, what they will do is they'll take that as an opportunity to get better. And I think eos it's unique in the fact that the direct manager, managee can hold their direct manager accountable in certain respects. And that's one of 'em with open and honest communication. Hey, you've given me this task. I'm doing my very best. I've got these ideas, but every time that I've got this idea, you're all over me. You're watching me. You're, you're, you want to be so involved in everything. I I'm, I'm being suffocated. I can't be successful. Yeah. If you have those open, honest conversations, they can affect change.

(41:47):

But if you're working for a bad manager, the change that may be affected is you have to leave and find somebody that will allow you to learn and grow Right. Under their tutelage. Yeah. As a mentor. So I would say that that is a huge problem, not with our organization. I haven't been micromanaged, which is wonderful. Almost to a fault sometimes I'm begging for help. Hey, come check this out. Hey, what can I get another set of eyes on this? But for me, I, I, I've seen it in the past and I've seen how it destroys departments, it destroys trust and ultimately arose the foundation of organizations. And it does not allow them to be as successful as they could be if, if somebody was given the tools to be successful without micromanagement. Yeah.

 

Forrest (42:28):

Well, I hope everybody's found this interesting and, and learned something. I've, I've learned some things today and appreciate you sharing your wisdom, especially with the experience that you've had in different industries and different backgrounds. And, you know, telecom is, is definitely a challenging industry cuz it's always changing. And to your point, if your companies that don't survive are the ones that don't keep up with the pace. So you gotta keep up and grow and evolve and continue to learn and look for what's coming in the future. So thank you for your time today, Keith.

 

Keith (43:00):

Had a great time. Thanks for having me. What

 

Forrest (43:02):

Would you rate it?

 

Keith (43:03):

10 out 10.

 

Forrest (43:03):

10 out of 10. Okay.

 

Keith (43:04):

Great time.

 

Forrest (43:05):

All right. Thanks. Thanks for All right.