Ear To Ear Podcast | EPISODE 8: Enneagram with Kerry Flowers

Transcript:

 

Introduction (00:00):

Welcome to Ear to Ear by Altaworx a podcast for all things telecom.

 

Forrest (00:11):

All right welcome to the Altaworx Ear to Ear podcast, where we talked about everything, telecom. Today we have a special guest, Kerry Flowers. Kerry, introduce yourself.

 

Kerry (00:24):

Hey, thanks for having me, for us. Appreciate it. I'm glad to be a part of the podcast. So yeah, I am Kerry Flowers work at USA Health and their organizational development department as part of human resources. And I think the reason you have me on today is to psychoanalyze you. Is that correct?

 

Forrest (00:41):

That might be part of it. Yeah. And I appreciate you giving a plug for your current employer.

 

Kerry (00:45):

Yeah, absolutely.

 

Forrest (00:46):

Absolutely. So, so let's talk about how, how did we meet each other? So do you, do you remember? That's a, that's a first, first

 

Kerry (00:52):

Question. Well, actually you reminded me. I remember. Okay, good, good. I'll say this. Yeah. So we had mutual friends. Yeah. and went to church together. And I think part of that, if I remember correctly, we had, we used the Enneagram as a, as a study in a small group Yeah. In our study. And found out all our quirks and how we got together and why we have fights and Yeah. What, how we get along. And so that, that's what kinda led to it. And then of course, that kind of parlayed to you and I working together Yeah. Do all our business in refuge.

 

Forrest (01:21):

Yes. Yes. We, we did spend some time in refuge after that first meeting. We spent some time getting to know each other. But, you know, I think the, the thing that really made an impact on me in that small group study, cuz I think there were like five or six couples in there Yep. Yep. Was figuring out my wife. Yeah. So you actually made my life and my wife and my marriage better. And what I gathered from that is, you know, she used to think I was crazy and I used to think she was crazy. Oh, yeah. And now we just understand that we're crazy. Yeah, yeah. But we know how to work

 

Kerry (01:49):

Around it. Yeah. You just accept it and live with it. Right.

 

Forrest (01:51):

Accept the quirks and, and work around it. That's right. So, you know, I never could understand why she always had extra tennis shoes in the car a bottle of water some matches and some other accessories. But since she's an Enneagram six Yep. She has to be prepared for everything. And so I totally get that. And then on my side, you know, she didn't understand why I needed recognition and why I needed, you know, trophies and things. So yeah.

 

Kerry (02:16):

Perfect marriage. Perfect marriage, perfect marriage. And, and that's really one of the reasons that I use the Enneagram in my professional life. And really, I do a lot of executive coaching mm-hmm. <Affirmative> a lot of leadership things. And I, I think the reason I like it is because every personality test or assessment tells you how you think and behave mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, but the Enneagram kind of goes a layer deeper Yeah. And tells you why. Yeah. So there's, there's an unconscious motivation that drives all of us. And really, once you figure that out and you know it, you start to see it. Yeah. and when you see it and realize that you can, you know, if it, if it makes you stumble and gets in your way, you can start taking steps to get out of it. Right. one of the, I think Ian Kron is probably the, the guru of the Enneagram right now in America. He, he's outta Nashville. And one of the things that he says is that every Enneagram type is either healthy, average, or unhealthy, and he calls the unhealthy asleep mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and knowing your Enneagram type and your, your motivation helps you wake up mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and become the best version of yourself. And so that's why I use it.

 

Forrest (03:25):

Yeah. So how did you find the Enneagram?

 

Kerry (03:28):

Well it's a long road. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and I'll tell you the real reason I I've started using it too is because it's universally access mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, so it's free. Yeah. Because it's been around so long, nobody's got a copyright on it. Yes. So I wanted something to get them

 

Forrest (03:43):

So you can steal it, basically. You can steal

 

Kerry (03:44):

It. Okay, good. And, and, and morph it. Yeah. So really what I wanted to do is give my client something that they could go after I was through with 'em and go back and find it on the internet mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and, and, and just do it for free. Yeah. A lot of the the Myers-Briggs, the world, the disc, the Colby, as we mentioned earlier mm-hmm. <Affirmative> you know, they're gonna, they're gonna pull you in, but you're gonna have to pay for it. Right. Which is great. I mean, all the products are good. Yeah. but, but that's really why I wanted to, to use the Enneagram. It's, it's easily, easily accessed. Yeah. And I'll say this this podcast is ironic. Every millennial mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, you know, that's under 40 years old. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> probably has been typed on the Enneagram because it's so prevalent on the internet and it's out there. And and it's free of course. Yeah. So that's why I was saying it's, it's very very easily accessed.

 

Forrest (04:31):

Yeah. Well, it would definitely made an impact. And I, I don't mean to, you know, make light of it did make a real big impact on Amber and I, I mean, you know, it's not like we were struggling, we weren't on the divorce seat or anything like that. Right. But it really has helped me understand her you challenges and things and how she looks at things where I would get frustrated with her before. Yep. I'm not frustrated now. Right. Because I understand that that's just how she's wired. That's right. Now I have to compensate and figure out how to work around those things. Right. But I've learned, you know, like going on vacation. Yeah. I would be happy going on vacation, propping up a chair somewhere and just sitting and watch the sunset or the waves. She has to have a plan, an agenda, a schedule, you know, from seven 50 in the morning to eight 15, we're gonna do this from eight 15 to eight 30, we're gonna do this. Oh yeah. She's gotta have the right clothing, she's gotta have all the various things. And I remember years years ago, I surprised her and I, and this was after Enneagram. Yeah. But I made a trip for us to go on, but I wouldn't tell her where

 

Kerry (05:37):

Oh, you freaked

 

Forrest (05:37):

Her out. Okay. <laugh>. So I, well, I didn't know, cuz I knew this would freak her out. Right. So here's what I did, understanding her six mentality. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I worked with her sister and her mother Yep. To lie to her. Okay. I did lie to her. So

 

Kerry (05:53):

That's a good marriage approach. Well, it

 

Forrest (05:54):

Is. Sometimes <laugh>. So, so what I did was, I said, your mom and your sister are gonna take you somewhere and this is there where they're gonna go. I gotcha. You guys are gonna go to the beach, so you're gonna need swimwear. Yeah. You're gonna need this, that and the other. And then at the last minute Yeah, when they showed up, I said, by the way, we are going with me instead of them. And then we got in the car and left. So, I mean, it was all nice out, very nice. But she had everything she needed, so there was no concern about whether she had the right clothes or the, or the right accessories or the right shoes or whatever. That's

 

Kerry (06:25):

Impressive.

 

Forrest (06:26):

So anyway,

 

Kerry (06:26):

And I'd like to go back to what you said about you'd just like to go to the beach and kick back. See, I know that's not true because you're a three, you're gonna, you're gonna have to work at some point in time.

 

Forrest (06:33):

Yes, yes. I will be checking email during that time. Yeah. But I don't need a schedule. Right. Guess is where I to do that. I'll just check email early in the morning, so, right. Yeah. so, you know, obviously I got introduced through a small group Right. And marriage. But what I got out of that, after going through it and after Amber and I going through it is, wow, you know, I've got a leadership team at the office. It would be great to take the leadership team through this mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And so you were able to facilitate that Right. With our leadership team. So tell me about what that approach looks like when you take somebody through that. Yeah. At least a team like that.

 

Kerry (07:09):

Yeah. So the Enneagram itself is is, is really excellent about changing behavior if you want to mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, you know, and, and so that's again, how I use it with a lot of executive coaching and for teams too. Yeah. Because if you if you look at the Enneagram and the way it's organized, it really there's nine different types mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, just to kind of give everybody a, a broad Yeah. Overview. There's, there's nine types. And each each one of the types are grouped into a triad mm-hmm. <Affirmative> basically. So there's three types and each triad. And the first triad would be the gut triad, which would be types eight, nine, and one, which really when they receive information they want to do something mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And so if you are an eight, a nine or a one, you hear something, you gotta go, what's next?

 

(08:01):

What do I do? Yeah. and sometimes they, because they're gut thinkers, they react with their body and instinct. They they'll do before they think sometimes mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And so they're just all about getting it done. Yep. Really quickly. And so the common anchor emotionally to all those three types, eight, nine, and one is anger. And so they deal with anger in different ways mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. So I remember when we in your office, we, we had one in particular. I don't, I don't think she's there anymore. She's moved on. But her choice by the way, I think not yours. Yep, yep. But I think she was a type eight mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and, and everybody was like, why, why is she so angry? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And she's like, I'm not angry, I'm just passionate mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And that's many of the times, that's the way eights manifest themselves Yeah.

 

(08:48):

Is that anger can't, it's not gonna stay bottled up. Up, it's gonna come out. Yeah. And, and, you know, eights are drivers mm-hmm. And they are highly energetic mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And, and they are not only passionate about what they do, they are very strategic in their thinking. Yeah. So, so those combinations of strategic, passionate, wanting control, those type thinkers are gonna be leaders naturally mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And so, but the hard, the hard thing about that is you gotta keep 'em on a short leash mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And so and they know that Yeah. <Laugh>, they, they, they know that most of the time. So that, that's just one of the types about anger. The other the other type in that group or another type is nine mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, and their anger is non-existent, basically goes to sleep. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, they're, every bit is angry as an aide, but they they tend to just are peacekeepers. They keep it down. Yeah. And so you'll never know it easygoing people just very, very smooth, even keeled. But they but they, because of that suppressed anger, sometimes they, they tend to let others dictate what goes on around them. And they kind of are

 

Forrest (09:54):

They're, they're angry about it, but somebody else is, is managing

 

Kerry (09:57):

It for Yeah. And so they, they really hate conflict mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And so that they, they kind of merge their thinking with other people. Yeah. and then the one, their anger is directed inward. They're very self-critical mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. and, and it's, they're very conscious about perfection. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and perfecting the world and making it a perfect place to live. They want people to work as hard as them. They have a great work ethic. Yep. very disciplined, very responsible people, but they get resentful because nobody works as hard as they do. Right. <laugh> so, so a lot, honestly, I'll tell you this for us, when I coach executives, eights and ones are the most prevalent types that I coach. Really? Yeah. And it's eights because many times they often blow through things and there's collateral damage everywhere. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and you have to go put that back in place. Yeah. Yeah. And then for the ones, they just don't understand why people can't get along with them and do the same, do the

 

Forrest (10:52):

Same work

 

Kerry (10:52):

Level and everything. Yes. And so they get frustrated Yeah. And they tend to tend to burn out. Yeah. And so we have to coach 'em through that. Yeah. so there, and that's just one of the triads and I'll lemme just stop here for just a second. I had I do a lot of work in healthcare, obviously. And each one of these types that you can go through all nine types have a what's called a virtue mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and this is what I was referring to earlier, how do you and improve your personality type to become the best you can be. Right. So for that type eight that has the anger they are very, very conscious about control. They wanna be in control. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, they look to see who has the power and the authority, and they go try to get it mm-hmm.

 

(11:34):

<Affirmative>. Right. And so that's their passion. Some people call it a deadly sin. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And theirs is, and this sounds weird, and if you're if you've never heard this before the Enneagram goes way back like maybe 500 years, predates psychology. And the creators of the Enneagram assign these deadly sins are assign these passions to deadly sins. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So eights would be lust. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And it's not that they're, it's not a, you know, a sexual thing. Right. It's, it's an intensity of thirst. Yeah. Yeah. For for getting in the, in the middle of things, instigating things. So their virtue then is innocence. So you want, what they have to do is become very vulnerable mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And so just this week I had to, had to coach a leader, a nursing leader that was, you know, collateral damage was everywhere in her department.

 

(12:32):

And so I had to go to her and say, look, you gotta be vulnerable. You gotta, you gotta ask them what's wrong, and I'll tell you she didn't wanna do it. Yeah. It's hard. It's not natural. Yeah. It's not natural. Yeah. It's really not. Yeah. And so, so as you go through the, that's, again, that's why I like it like this as a, as a tool because you not only have a, a quote like a diagnosis Yeah. But you also have a treatment plan. Yeah. And so it really does help people get, get to be the best they can. So what are the other groups? That was the group of three. So, so that was three. And I'll speed through this. So that's the first triad, the gut triad this eight, nine, and one. And then the second triad is the feeling or the heart triad.

 

(13:06):

And that's 2, 3, 4 mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And so these typically in this group, they're very conscious about their image mm-hmm. <Affirmative> as they, and it's not like a Hollywood red carpet image, it's more like, how do I portray myself to the outside world mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And so twos want to portray an image of being needed mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. So they go over and above with relationships and very empathetic people, and they want to make sure that they helping help, help, help, help. Yeah. Yeah. What can I do for you? Yeah. All the time. And the problem with, or not the problem, but the deadly sin or the challenge, the passion for twos is, is pride. Mm. And that is, they want to help you because they think you need their help more than they need. You need or they need your help. Yeah. Boy, I slaughtered that one.

 

(13:53):

You wanna go back through that <laugh>? Yeah. Go say that again. Yeah. So basically they, they don't want your help, right. Because they're not even sure that they need help. Right. They think you do. Yeah. And so, so pride is their issue that they try to deal with. Pride is their their deadly sin. So, and, and they're not prideful people. Yeah. but it's just like you obviously need help. Right. And let me do it. Yeah. Bless your, your heart. Bless your heart. Let me be the one that does that for you. I'll skip three cuz I'm gonna come back cuz I know you're three, but I'll go to four. So fours are and by the way, they choose everything is outward. Right? So they're pushing that help outward mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and that need outward, they wanna help other people, and they really comprehend the world through other people on the outside.

 

(14:35):

Yeah. The fours are totally opposite. They comprehend the world based on their own feelings. So where if two's worried about other people's feelings mm-hmm. <Affirmative> four's worried about how they are feeling. Yeah. And they interpret things based on what they've been through before. Fours are the greatest empathizers and connectors, they make great hospice nurses. Hmm. Because they're okay with the sadness of life. Mm-Hmm. They're okay being a little melancholy. Yeah. It, it's fine with 'em. And so fours think that there's kind of something, a central missing in their life and they don't know what it is. It's really hard for them to identify it. Yeah. And so for that reason, they're they're very reflective. Yeah. Those, those feelings go inward and they always want to try to do something to make up for that non-essential or that essential piece that's missing by being unique.

 

(15:23):

Yeah. So many, many fours are artist writers entertainers they want to find some type of way to express themselves in a unique way and fill, fill that up. And so their, here's the problem with that though. Their passion or their deadly sentence envy because they compare, what am I missing compared to you? You look happier than me, Forrest. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, you've, you're such a successful person at Alto Works. <Laugh> wish I could have that. And that's what fors do a lot. Yeah. And that, as you know, that's a, that's a rabbit hole. You don't want to go down. Right. And that's sometimes that missing element. Right. Each that, so let's go to threes Forst.

 

Forrest (16:03):

Well, yeah. Okay. All right. So I'm a three Yes. For, for, for transparency. So I'm gonna try to keep my feelings out of this. So ahead. Let, let's talk hypothetically about threes would be, let's not talk specifically, but hypothetically,

 

Kerry (16:15):

Let's say you have a friend that's a three. Yeah.

 

Forrest (16:16):

A friend that's a three that works. Yeah.

 

Kerry (16:18):

Yeah. So you may, and this, I think you and I had this conversation way back, is if two threes and fours are worried about image, and it's all about feeling a three, sometimes feels like, oh, I think I mistyped mm-hmm. <Affirmative> because threes are more robotic. They don't have as many feelings mm-hmm. <Affirmative> or they're able to contain 'em. Yep. Push 'em down into a drawer, compartmentalize and get back to 'em com.

 

Forrest (16:38):

My wife says that to me all the time that I may able to compartmentalize my feelings. Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

 

Kerry (16:43):

And so here's where why they belong in this category though. They're where the image of the two is to be needed and to be loved. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, the three expresses that image as being admired or respected mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. So two says, Hey, I'd love to hear you say I love you, I need you. A three would like to hear you say, you're really good at that. I respect you. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, so a little d both of 'em are seeking love, but two different ways. Yeah. Different ways. Yeah. So, so the three is, is very adept at working the crowd. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> going through an audience and saying, what mask do I need to put on Yep. To be able to, to connect with them. And that's where the relationship piece comes in for threes is how do I use not use that's not, I'm making you feel, I'm talking about your friend here.

 

(17:29):

Yeah. But the way that they connect with people is to, to come into a room and say oh, you know what? You're great at marketing. Let me tell you about my past in marketing mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and tell me a little bit about more, you know, what do we need to do about marketing to get it better? And so they make a huge connection. What the three's thinking in the back of their mind, this person can really help me sell stuff. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> or this person can really help me advance my company. Yep. And it's a good thing they both are, are very satisfied in that. Right. But that's the threes angle is, is usually how do I get better? How do I achieve my goal? Right. I wanna make this look easy. Who can help me do that? Yeah.

 

Forrest (18:07):

So, so if, if, if if we can talk about my friend again. Yeah, sure. That's a three. Cuz you know, one of the things that I've seen our office do is we use Lego figures as, as a gift that we give every employee at 90 days. So 90 days you get a Lego mini fig and that mini figure is customized for you. The other side of that is when you leave, you have to turn in your Lego mini fig. Gotcha. So we got a little display case of the Lego mini figs of departed employees. But you know, our, my leadership team had to come up with my mini fig Oh yeah. When we did these mini figs a couple of years ago and I ended up with two trophies Yep. One for each hand Yeah. For my accessories. Right. So it, it's a running joke in the office and people put trophies in my office and it, it's just one of those things where Yep. I I I see it, I acknowledge it. Yep. And it, it's fine. Yep. one of the other things that we did in the office is we've got these little Enneagram stickers that talk about the specific characteristics of each person. So

 

Kerry (19:03):

I think you gave my wife one. Yes, I

 

Forrest (19:04):

Did give your wife one. So everybody has one of those, and they typically put it on their laptop. So when you're in a meeting and you're looking across the table, you can see their reminder of what their Enneagram number is. Yep. To remind you of that.

 

Kerry (19:16):

Well, you know, and you bring out a good point there. And, and if you get into a, a situation where it's in your office, like it is in yours, you can really communicate so much better with the, the person across the table if you know their numbers. Yes. An example would be, you know, if I'm talking to you in a meeting, I would say, okay, he's worried about how do we achieve this, the goals, how's the plan to get there? What can we do to put in place? So this is a success? Whereas a two would say, Hey, what about the customer? How are we, how are we achieving what they want? And how do we blend those things to make it all work together? And by the way, are you having a good day? That's what, you know, two, you know, so Right. So it does make it easier to communicate if you know the style of the

 

Forrest (19:55):

Other Yeah. You don't want a leadership team with all threes on it.

 

Kerry (19:57):

Well, they're good. Now, I'll say this, the threes and eights make great leaders. They do. Yeah. But you don't wanna help all of those, but Right. You want to, you do a well-rounded team and, you know, that's even that's very much in the literature, not just with personality styles, but also employee engagement is the more diverse your leadership team is, and really your office, your office. Yeah. You'll, if you're able to tap into it and access it mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and you're open to it, you you'll be more innovative because you'll get a broader perspective. All the people at the table. Yeah. The problem is, those same people in your group that are very innovative and bring different perspectives can drive you crazy <laugh>. Yes. Because they're different. Right. And you gotta go, oh, do we have to listen to this too again and talk about how important the customer is? They'll get over it, you know, whatever.

 

Forrest (20:44):

But, but you can understand what they are That's right. And where they're coming from and say, okay, yeah. That's that two coming out or whatever. That's right. That's right. So one of the interesting, other interesting thing about my friend Yeah. <Laugh>, let's just talk about me, about me. One of the things that happened with me is that we went through this process and Lydia, who is our EVP of Rev, our EVP of operations, when I started with this company eight years ago mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, she and I butted heads Yeah. All the time. All the time. Yeah. We were butting heads and we really had a, a, a struggle to get along. And after we went through this process, I don't know if you were in the room or not, I don't remember.

 

Kerry (21:22):

I think you told me about it. Yeah, I think

 

Forrest (21:23):

I told you about it. Yeah. But after we went through this process where you took our leadership team Right. Figured out what our numbers were, and then talked specifically about each one in front of us. Right. So that we understood how to relate. Lydia and I both connected again and said, and her, her comment was, if I had, if we had known this when you first started Yeah. Yeah. It wouldn't have taken us eight years, or That's right. Seven years or whatever it was to get along because we would've understood how each other with what directions we were coming from. Yeah. So

 

Kerry (21:54):

That's very true. I, I was in a meeting about a year ago with an executive and, and he is an eight mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, he's a type eight. And he said he was in a a meeting with a another leader that was an introvert mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And so it was much more of a, and I'll go into the last group in just a second. Yeah. And, and he was much more of a reflector mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And he, when he got in the meeting, I I said, how'd the meeting go? And he had this rye grin on his face, and he said, well, lemme tell you what I did. He said you know, eights like, they don't like to mince words mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, and they like to get to the point quickly. Yeah. And sometimes that can be very blunt.

 

(22:32):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you don't want to ask an eight if you look fat in a dress, because they're gonna tell, tell, they're gonna tell you the honest truth. And so he said, he, he went into the meeting and he just kind of lobbed a grenade out there and said, this is what I think about this, you know, the project that we're working on. And he said, I really didn't even want to endorse that part. And he said, but I just wanted to throw it out there so people would start arguing about it, uhhuh and debating because a loved

 

Forrest (22:56):

It. Open discussion.

 

Kerry (22:57):

Yeah. Yeah. If you get the debate out there, you're gonna get to, to the truth quicker. So, yeah. Very interesting. Yeah.

 

Forrest (23:01):

That's cool. Yeah. All

 

Kerry (23:03):

Right. Yeah. So the last group. Last group, yeah. Yeah. So the last triad is where, you know, the first 8, 9 0 1 s are gut and they really instinct. The second is 2, 3, 4, and they're more feeling and the heart, the third group are, are the thinkers mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, and they're, they're, they're up in their head. And when they receive information, and by the way, all three of these are called the intelligence centers mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And it's, and it has nothing to do with how smart you are, it's just the way you receive information from the world. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> so 8 91 receive information through their gut, two, three fours from their feelings and other people. And then five, six, and seven get it from they receive it through their brains and they have to process it through their mental capacity first. So their initial response is to research and plan mm-hmm. <Affirmative> or to think about stuff. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> planning is huge. Your wife says six. Yes. So she's in this group big time, love to plan,

 

Forrest (23:55):

Big time,

 

Kerry (23:56):

Love, love, love to plan. And so each one of those five, six, and seven have this as a, as a common bond, so to speak. They also have fear mm-hmm. <Affirmative> as their common emotion. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So the fear that they have a little different for all, all three of these types. So fives fear the outside world coming in mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And so what that means is they are they hate surprises. They want to be prepared for everything. They enjoy researching mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and they want to use that research and knowledge and book knowledge to be self-sufficient. Yeah. So they want to have, they want to know everything so that they can be prepared. So nothing, nothing surprises them. They like

 

Forrest (24:34):

To investigate,

 

Kerry (24:35):

Investigate. They call the observer. Yeah. The investigator. And they, excuse me, they will prefer to observe instead of getting involved. And so they're probably out of all the types in the Enneagram, they're one, one of the most introverted. And they're okay with that. Yeah. They, that's how they recharge their batteries. And they're, they're very I have a, a nephew that is a type five that came home. And then when he was married to my niece, she was very frustrated for the first year of marriage because he would come home and go off to his room by himself mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And she thought, she's like, what have I done? Yeah. You know, why, why are you not talking to me? And, and it just took them a while to work through that. He had to come home, go in isolation, read a book, recharges batteries.

 

(25:20):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, because every social interaction for a five is like when the fuel gauge goes from, you know, full to empty. Yeah. And so every one of those interactions, every surprise, every unexpected thing that happens to the day, wears 'em out, wears 'em out, drains 'em. Yeah. And so they, they try to prepare for that. They, I guess the best way to think of a five is like Mr. Spock mm-hmm. <Affirmative> on Star Trek. Yeah. Very logical. Yeah. Detached from their emotions very well. Yeah. And so they, but they do fear the outside world coming in. They, it's funny. Their deadly sin or their passion is called varus, which is, some people mistake that for greed and then mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, but it's really, they wanna hold on to what they have and they don't want people to come get it. They don't want what you got. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Right. They don't care about

 

Forrest (26:04):

That. They just don't mess with what I

 

Kerry (26:05):

Got. Don't mess with what I got. Yeah. And so that's the Abes that that they talk about. So the six is your wife or the friend of your wife Yeah. About that.

 

Forrest (26:13):

Yeah. So I friend. Yeah. So,

 

Kerry (26:14):

So they're called the questioners. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And, and what they do with their mental capacity is they plan for safety and security. Some people say they plan for worst case scenarios to happen, which is why she Kerrys all that stuff in the car. Right? Yep. So, but they're great, great, great at troubleshooting mm-hmm. <Affirmative> because they anticipate everything that could possibly go wrong. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. A lot of people in it are type sixes. They

 

Forrest (26:38):

Have a plan, a backup plan, a backup backup plan, a backup backup, backup plan.

 

Kerry (26:42):

Absolutely. And risk, very risk averse, cuz they are, they are very good at, at really playing things out over time to see where it could go wrong. And really good planners, excellent planners, like I said.

 

Forrest (26:54):

So it's interesting about my wife, I'll just put it out there, she's a six and she has started a business and one of the challenges she's had is, is taking that risk and just Oh yeah. And quitting her job and focusing on that business. And I'm just like, look, you know, there's no stress here. You know, I'll put food on the table. You just, you focus on this business. And so it's, it's been a process that we've had to go through to get her comfortable with going out there on her own and doing that. So Yeah.

 

Kerry (27:23):

That, that is a huge risk. Yeah. Because they want all the answers before they Sure. Before they leap. And that's, that's hard to do in that situation. So they, their deadly sin is anxiety. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, it really is. It's not it's more, they, they worry about the things that could go wrong. They worry about if they're prepared. And they, this is a unusual aspect of the sixes. They tend to look to authority figures and like, it could be, it could be you mm-hmm. <Affirmative> in your marriage, you know, like, or it could be a boss or politicians. And what they're looking to in these authority figures is, are you gonna be trustworthy? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> can, can I depend on you to alleviate my anxiety and alleviate my safety or my need for safety and security. Yep. And so they have a weird relationship with authority. They always kind of look to, to them to take their lead from 'em. Yeah. sixes have a hard time, they're trusting mm-hmm. <Affirmative> themselves too, by the way. Yes. Do they doubt? They do. They doubt themselves. And so they're a little skeptical at first. But on the flip side of that, they're really known as the loyal questioner. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And once you get past that questioning, they're absolutely the glue in most organizations. Cuz they, they, they,

 

Forrest (28:37):

The best friends, the

 

Kerry (28:39):

Best people

 

Forrest (28:40):

You want rely on.

 

Kerry (28:41):

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So I heard this said before that they they're the glue in companies because they prevent bad things from happening mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And it's hard to quantify that. Yeah. You know, a lot of people think, oh my gosh, here comes the type six. Yeah. They're gonna throw a wet blanket on our ideas. Really what they're doing is making sure you've thought of everything. Yeah, yeah.

 

Forrest (29:01):

You're looking at all the angles. Yeah.

 

Kerry (29:03):

And you don't go off the, off the rails. Yep. So that leads us to the last type, which is seven mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, which I happen to favor mm-hmm. <Affirmative> quite a bit mm-hmm. <Affirmative> since that's my type mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. so sevens are in the thinking group and they they're, they're deadly seen as gluttony. So let me explain what gluttony is.

Forrest (29:21):

Yeah. You're not talking about food. Right? I'm not

 

Kerry (29:23):

Talking about food. Although maybe Yeah. But the gluttony of the seven is because they desire so much stimulation. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> they want new stuff. They want exciting stuff. When you told me that you wanted to do a podcast, I never done a podcast before, this is gonna be awesome. Yeah. And then I'm thinking, do I plan for it? Yeah. But you know, I don't need anything written down. Right. I'll just

 

Forrest (29:44):

Wing it. Yeah,

 

Kerry (29:44):

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so that

 

Forrest (29:45):

Exactly.

 

Kerry (29:46):

So the sevens are just absolutely about new experiences. Yeah. the, the originators of the Enneagram called a monkey brain uhhuh because they tend to be a little a d d and they swing like monkeys from idea to idea to idea. Sometimes you can pick up on, on sevens when you talk to 'em because they'll start a sentence and they'll go and then they'll pick and then they'll, you know, and then they Yeah. And they never finish because they're already gone onto to the next idea. And they're, they've

 

Forrest (30:12):

So, you know, our leadership team, so Ricky Richie is our ceo. He is a seven. Yes. I'm a three. So Ricky and I work very closely together in eos. I'm the integrator and he's the visionary. Yeah. So he's the leader of the company. You know, my job is to try to corral those ideas, those thoughts, those, those new things Yes. And get 'em organized before we communicate to the team. But it, it is a, it is a challenge. Yeah. it, it's, it's a good working relationship, but it is a challenge for us to balance each other out. No doubt. You know, he's got, he wants to do this, this, you know, we, we joke about him, it, it's kind of a joke, but kind of true that he shoots first in the names.

 

Kerry (30:49):

Oh, there's no doubt. <Laugh>. There is no doubt. And that's, and

 

Forrest (30:51):

I'm an AMR then shooter. Right? Yeah. So we, we've got to really, you know, balance each other in that, I

 

Kerry (30:57):

Think three and seven make a super combination from a leadership standpoint mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, because as you said, the seven tends to be more visionary, way less practical. Yes. And much more, let's explore what, what are options, gimme more options, let's explore. And if it doesn't work, we'll try something else. That's right. But they love the flexibility and the freedom to just explore. And the three has to say, ain't gonna work. Yeah. You, you know, I hear what you're saying, but this is the, this is

 

Forrest (31:22):

Why it's not gonna work. Right,

 

Kerry (31:23):

Right. And this is the practical side of it. Yeah. So the practicality, the planning of the three counterbalances that, that visionary, that freedom kind of the hippie mm-hmm. <Affirmative> <laugh> kind of mentality of the seven. And, and, and really, if I've met, obviously I know and met Ricky before Yeah. They are the, the the impractical startups mm-hmm. <Affirmative> entrepreneurs mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And, and the three are the more practical startup entrepreneur. They, they put the plan together and make it work. So it, it is a nice marriage.

 

Forrest (31:56):

Yeah. I've, I've, we've, I've had that discussion with several people over the last, particularly over the last several years as I've understood the Enneagram and understood eos and understood, you know, what my role is of the integrator. You know, I've had people talk to me, say, yeah, you need to start a business. I'm like, no, that's not, I need to help somebody start a business. So I need somebody else to go out and take the risk and start the business. But, you know, I feel like in my three, in my, you know, integrator role that I can help a visionary Yeah. But I'm not necessarily the vision. It doesn't mean I won't have an idea. Right. You can do it, but Yeah. I'm, I'm more on the, the structured, build a plan, take an idea, formulate it.

 

Kerry (32:36):

Well, and the EOS is a great example because sevens would evaluate that and they'd say, okay, that, that dog will hunt. That's good. Yeah. But can you do it for me? Yeah. Right. You know, I mean That's right. They see it and they're like, that's a great idea. Yeah, let's do that. And then, but they, it's hard, hard for them to, to fulfill that all the way through <affirmative>. They'd, they'd start it, right? Yeah. And they'd say, Ooh, somebody come help me and get this finished. And that's, that's a, a good Yeah. And you said something a while ago that that really struck me too, that I forgot to mention early on, we all have each of the nine characteristics in us. So, you know, you, you as a three that you're dominant type, but you have all nine. Yeah. Yeah. And what happens is at some point in time, and, and this is true of all personality it, it's still in wet cement mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, you know mm-hmm. <Affirmative> through our adolescence. And at some point in early adulthood it starts to solidify. Yeah. And what that, that solidifying process is where you go from, okay, I, I've seen all these different types strategies of coping with the world. Right. But this is my default one. This is the one I'm most comfortable with. Takes the least amount of energy. You could do the visionary stuff mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, but it take you more energy and more effort mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, whereas

 

Forrest (33:48):

It's

 

Kerry (33:48):

Three

 

Forrest (33:48):

Stuff. It's not natural.

 

Kerry (33:49):

Yeah. Not natural. And so, so that, I, that is something again that I like about the Enneagram is it's not a, you're not pigeonholed. You know, you can, you can say, okay, if this is me, this is my default, I can still go here and this is how I go here. Right. For those other types. Yeah. and that's, that's a really important aspect of, of really all personality assessments, is you, you want to have, and you wanna work with something that gives you not just who you are, but an action plan to work with it.

 

Forrest (34:18):

So let's talk about action plans, just cuz I know that you were able to help us Yeah. With, with our son and, and thinking about what he wanted to do with his life. Talk to me about, you know, how you've been able to help some college students in that, in that early process of Okay. Or a high school student going to college, trying to figure out what degree path. Cuz you know, we, we all know that, you know, student loan debt's huge. Yeah. And there's a lot of people that are going to school for things that they think they want to do. Right. But have they really done a good evaluation about what they could do and whether they would enjoy it? So talk about that. Yeah.

 

Kerry (34:50):

My wife and I had this discussion last week. It's like when, when we were growing up back in the day, it was, you know only a few kids had braces. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, not everybody got braces. Now everybody gets braces. Yeah. I mean, it's like a rite of passage, right? Yeah, it is. Yeah. And so now it's the same thing with college when, you know, not everybody went to college in our generation

 

Forrest (35:10):

Right. Trade schools or mechanics or,

 

Kerry (35:12):

And now it is. And like you said, they get in there and they're like, what am I doing? Yeah. And so one of the things that, that the Enneagram is good for is it does identify your strengths. There's a lot of talk these days and research about not only college kids, but also once they get out into their first job, there's a big push in organizations to figure out what people's strengths are mm-hmm. <Affirmative> because it's such an engaging factor. Yeah. And so, especially the younger crowd, say the under 35 crowd, they really do want you to, to identify their strengths and help 'em develop it. Yeah. And so in the old days it was what weaknesses can I shore up Yeah. And make, make myself better, well-rounded. Well they don't even care about that. Yeah. It's really what strengths are. And so yeah. How can you

 

Forrest (35:59):

Make your strengths better?

 

Kerry (35:59):

Yep. And so if you can identify those early on Yeah. And the Enneagram can help you do that, then you're more likely to narrow your college choice your major. Yeah. and so what the action plan for me, what I do with that is I use the Enneagram and pair it with something called the strong interest inventory, which has taken every personality type. And this guy, I, I can't even remember the guy probably strong mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. Yeah. I don't know what happened. That's probably his last name. Right. but about a hundred years ago he started to develop this. And in the last a hundred years what he's worked out is if this is your personality type, these are the types of work, the types of majors that most suit you mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. So if you go back to the analogy of of Ricky being a type seven.

 

(36:44):

Yeah. and I'll give you a good example, personal example. Yeah. Everybody in my family is either accountants or engineers mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. So as a type seven, I'm like, okay, I'll do that. Yeah. I can do, I can do that. And theoretically a seven could do that, but, but they can't in reality because they get, they, they can't handle the detail. Right. Right. So I took two semesters and of my freshman year I'm like, I can't do accounting. Yeah. I get it. But I hate it. Right. And so, so that's kind of always stimulated me to think, okay, what, what, how can you identify that earlier? Yeah. And, and get it done. So, so the action plan that I put in place is the Enneagram and the strong interest. And what I do is marry those two together. This is my personality with the Enneagram. Yeah. And then these are the type work or the type major that I ultimately test out as aligning those two together. Yeah. And so usually when you, and, and the other thing I like to do with that is to talk people through it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I don't like to put it on paper and just say, here's what Yeah. Here's what it says. Because

 

Forrest (37:44):

They really need to understand the background and understand how to, how it could apply it really.

 

Kerry (37:48):

And personality is so complex. Yeah. It's very fluid, like I said. So you Yeah. Helping them know what, what the motivating factor, why they do what they do is helpful. Yeah. so cool. And so that's, yeah.

 

Forrest (37:59):

So anything we haven't talked about that you wanna share today? Cuz we're coming up from the end of the

 

Kerry (38:03):

Time. The other thing that we haven't touched on is just communication style. Yeah. And cuz each one definitely has a communication style. And I'll use your friend the three as as

 

Forrest (38:12):

Guy example.

 

Kerry (38:13):

So they communicate through through sales promotion mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And so they're able to, if, if if Ricky throws an idea out to you, you're able to go, okay, well here's how we can make that work mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, and you can identify what he wants in that idea and put it into a practical mold that works Yep. Through conversation of you can sell it to him. Yeah. He's already thrown the idea out there, but you can, you can sell it. So all, every type has a, a specific way that they kind of default to on their communication ones because they want a perfect world or preachy. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, we ought to do this. Yeah. You should do that. Yeah. And so they, they tend to preach twos are, they're motivating, they're, they're very intuitive about people mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And so they can, they can speak a communication style through advice. Mm-Hmm. This is what you need, this is how we can get there. Yeah. And it's, it's a very good connecting. Threes authority, like I said, are sales or promotion. Fours are lament, so fours will go down a quick rabbit hole about some sad things in life. But, but again they see it more as a, as a way to connect with you at the mm-hmm. <Affirmative> at the very deepest level. Fives lecture because they have so much knowledge and research. Yeah. six question. You probably live with that. I'll

 

Forrest (39:31):

Live with that.

 

Kerry (39:32):

Yeah. That's their community. Yeah. What if, what if, and so there's a lot of questions. Yes. Sevens tell stories mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. and then eights are are command and control. They're authoritative and they get right to the point. So commanding style of, of talk. So again, going back to your example, oh yeah, sorry about nine, sorry. They do what's called epic saga mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And so what nines wanna do is give you all the details mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. So they don't want you to be upset if you leave out any kind of portion or piece of the story. So they tend to go into great length and great detail to make sure you understand. Yeah. cuz they wanna keep the peace. Yeah. And it's very important that they keep the peace like that. So Yeah. So my son's a nine, I'm like, could you get to the point <laugh>? I'm like, man,

 

Forrest (40:18):

Come on. So when you get an email from I'm a seven Yeah. When you get an email it's like, you know, five, six paragraphs, all kinds of detail. Yeah. Yeah. So,

 

Kerry (40:26):

So yeah, yesterday we I work with a very closely with the type one who, when she sends an email, it's, it's got all the detail, but it's also got, you know, the action plan, what we should do and this is the best way to do it. Yeah. And I tend to send back funny memes. Right. You know, so. Yeah.

 

Forrest (40:43):

Yeah. Our, our funny thing with Ricky in the office is that he tends to not read the emails if it's too long mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. So, you know, if, if you send him a question, if it's like, yep. Would you like barbecue chicken or baked chicken? He says yes, <laugh>. Right. Because he's only read the first thing. Yes. I would like that. So I've learned over the years with, with him as a seven, I've got to be very direct, very to the point and very quick. Yep. And only give one Yeah. Bullet points. It's gotta be a yes or no. It can't be multiple choice, so. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Totally makes sense. Yeah. Well cool. Well I appreciate you coming on today. Think this has been good. Hopefully even enjoyed it. Yeah. And hopefully everybody has gotten something out of this to learn more about Enneagram and if you wanna learn more, connect with Kerry. Sure. We'll post his information in the, the podcast and appreciate your time.

 

Kerry (41:31):

Thank you. I enjoyed it. Thanks for inviting me.

 

Forrest (41:33):

Yeah. Have a great day. Bye.